Zira/Outlanders were NOT exiled for a crime

Zira/Outlanders were NOT exiled for a crime


The exile happened because of a past TRAUMA.


I mean not exiled for a crime other than Scar's. Fanfiction is fun fun fun! But the bottom line is; in movie making if anything gets complicated, it would be somewhat or extremely directly explained - NOT hidden behind hints.

Even the director of TLK2 says "the seeds of it are in the first film". (In the Making of documentary "Proud of Simba's Pride".) And the last time I checked, no crimes happen in that film apart from the one committed by Scar. And because the second film did not specify any crime other than the one Scar committed, that's the only one happened.

To back up this even more... There is NO need for a new crime to explain anything in TLK2.
Seriously.

If you bother to give any serious thoughts to the depth and number of the emotional wounds and traumas Scar had given to Simba, and the fact that Simba was not mentally a grown up when he reclaimed the throne, and how Simba learned the truth about Scar probably a very short time before he met Zira & co. - there lies more than enough reason for him to exile Zira and along with her everyone else who simply reminded him of Scar and were more or less with Zira, and thus potential danger. No crime was needed for Simba's choice.

Not fair towards Zira & co.? Very unpleasent to think about? Suck it up! Because life hadn't been fair to Simba! Life had been unpleasent to Simba! Simba was scared! And immature! How could you possibly demand him to be able of acting any differently?

Yes, Simba said "You can't turn your back on them." But of course Simba would say that. He was traumatized! Do you know what the concept of trauma is? The following quotes are from English Wikipedia.

"Psychological trauma is a type of damage to the psyche that occurs as a result of a traumatic event. When that trauma leads to posttraumatic stress disorder, damage may involve physical changes inside the brain and to brain chemistry, which changes the person's response to future stress."

Hence, Scar causing him deep traumas of which the latest was very fresh and came together with all the earlier, so he responds to the stress of kingship and parenthood differently than he probably otherwise would've.

"A traumatic event involves a single experience, or an enduring or repeating event or events, that completely overwhelm the individual's ability to cope or integrate the ideas and emotions involved with that experience. The sense of being overwhelmed can be delayed by weeks, years or even decades, as the person struggles to cope with the immediate circumstances."

Simba's traumatic events:
- At the age of 10 (or so) Helplessly watching his daddy fall to his death.
- A few moments later, trying to wake his daddy with no success, having to deal with this situation all alone.
- Cuddling in his dead father's arms, crying a river, he already blames himself for what happened. ("I didn't mean for it to happen.")
- His uncle Scar comes to this very situation and literally blames Simba. ("What have you done?" "Without you he'd still be alive." "And when your mother hears about this!")
- Simba considers him a friend and chooses an exile for life. A young child leaving his mother, friends and home forever, with the blame of his daddy's death on his shoulders and fresh in his heart, having no place to go and no hope.
- Wanders in a blazing sun/cold nights at a desert for probably couple of days, with no food, no water, no hope - likely wishing to die.
- For years and years he grows up with this pain, hurt and blame. Hakuna Matata probably saved his sanity. But the darkness was always there, he obviously could not completely push it aside.
- When he finally returns to face his ghosts, Scar forces him to confess his responsibility and almost kills him.
- But just before he was to do that, he reveals that HE killed Mufasa. Becoming the ultimate traumatic event seeing to all the above mentioned situations and emotions being because of Scar.
- As if this wasn't enough, Scar threw in how he could not be trusted at all. Simba has mercy on him by deciding to just exile him but Scar throws fire sparks into his eye and tries to kill him again.

Simba's feeling of being overwhelmed obviously was not delayed as TLK2 makes clear that Scar, his crimes and how Simba felt about them, were the reason for his choices with the Outsiders.

"Psychological trauma can lead to serious long-term negative consequences that are often overlooked even by mental health professionals: "If clinicians fail to look through a trauma lens and to conceptualize client problems as related possibly to current or past trauma, they may fail to see that trauma victims, young and old, organize much of their lives around repetitive patterns of reliving and warding off traumatic memories, reminders, and affects."

Zira and everyone who looked like her/Scar fall into the category of reminders which Simba warded off by exiling the lot. But of course the reason was not simply that selfish but also to protect his family from potential danger. He relived his traumas in his dreams, one of the times shown in the film. The affects being paranoid attitude towards those somehow closely related to Scar, ("You can't turn your back on them!"), and obsessive desire to protect his first-born and only child who appears to be just like he was when he was young (at which point his traumas started to build.)

But there were other characters too hinting towards a crime!

Zazu? "Nothing there but back-stabbing, murderous Outsiders!"

But judging by that he recommended Simba to NOT pay his debts to Kovu even though Mufasa's law said he should, and calling Kovu "Riff Raff" - even though Kovu was as innocent as a baby to whatever drama their kingdom had seen in the past. As in he didn't even stop to consider that matter. Thus, obviously, Zazu's attitude towards any Outsider wasn't fair while was passionate, low and negative. Resulting in that he painted the Outsiders much blacker than they truly were. But his cause was good; he tried to prevent a precious little girl from ever going to the Outlands.

Kovu? "I have left the Outsiders. I'm a rogue. Judge me now for who I am. Or am I to be blamed for a crime I didn't commit?"
Now if the refered crime was other than Scar's, it would have been specified in someone's words in that scene or later in the film. Kovu was just being smart. He pulled the right string to wiggle his way into the pride - by poking a at the right spot in Simba's traumatized psyche; reminding Simba that he had banished everyone for a crime they had not committed as well as how he had no valid reason to decline his request to join. As it was quite obvious from the prosper of the kingdom that Simba tried to be good and fair king.

Also, when Simba growls/roars at this and seems unable to pass a positive/agreeing judgmnent, Nala speaks up. She says; "Simba, you owe him your daughter's life." Listen to her tone of voice and look at her expression as she said that and remark he put the most emphasis on the word "life". Even though Zazu interpret it as just about owing something in general, Nala certainly meant to say that Simba shouldn't be that harsh on Kovu because of the reason of the debt clearly over-weighting whatever reason Simba felt like not letting any Outsider in and thus exiled them all years earlier. Which in this case was the mere hatred and mistrust of Scar-related lions.

Simba would've been a total, utter emotional mess and nutcase and very unstable ruler if he had lost his only son/child too, on top of all the loss and traumas Scar had caused him. Especially if he'd lost this child to a murder by Scar-related lion. And Nala would not have so passionately and determinedly reasond with "he saved your daughter's life" if the person in talks had grown up with her son's murderer/suspected murderer or with a criminal in any way. Instead she would've done what Simba did: asked Kovu why he saved her. And the reason being "I want to join your pride" would not be enough to gain trust, quite the contrary in fact. But to Nala, it obviously did not cause suspect. Because the reason for Kovu having been exiled in the first place was not his mother but Scar's crime and Simba's hatred, trauma and prejudice - to which Nala can not relate to on deep enough level as she was not related to Scar, had not lost a close parent because of Scar, had not suffered years of self-blame because of Scar and had not almost been killed by Scar.

Scar, Scar, Scar! One guy CAN single-handedly cause that much trouble and hurt, long term affects to an entire community through abusing its leader long and deeply enough.

So I really don't think there was any crime commited by anyone but Scar and there most certainly was no siblings to Kiara. Because the film didn't say there was and there is absolutely no need for any. And because Simba's Pride's makers have officially confirmed that in their story the cub is Kiara. In this official interview they say "It starts off where the first film left us with a twist - you think it's a king but it's a queen!" And remark also that he says that we THINK it's a boy, not that it actually was in the film itself. But the point is, one of the animators have confirmed that in their story Kiara IS the cub at the end of the first film.






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February 20, 2015
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@ Leapardlover:

Thanks! :)

But I think Simba can exile Zira without any proof. I mean, he's the king. He can do whatever he wants. And that was the attitude he was left with, remember? The "I Just Can't Wait To Be King" song sequence happened AFTER Mufasa gave his lessson about kingship, which by the way seemed like the first one he gave Simba, so no wonder the kid's attitude still was that bratty kind. Then Mufasa died. Like, two days after that. So Simba never developed any better attitude. I suppose that after Simba returned and reclaimed the throne, Zazu and Sarabi introduced him to Mufasa's laws and helped him to begin his reign, but they had no power over what this now terribly wounded and traumatized man-child would decide to do. (Plus, Zazu - his counsellor - apparently shared his extreme opinion about Zira.)
Anyway, they pretty much had proof, of Zira's loyalty to Scar. Remember how aggressively and passionately and totally openly Zira announced "These lands belong to SCAR!" She more than likely did so in the past, as well. :)

leapardlover
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January 27, 2015
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I don't really think so. Did zira do anything bad to simba in the past? no. Simba COULD have given judgement- or even offered her a place in the pride. Simba just can't exile zira because he can't trust her. He should have proof for exiling her. Simba was taught by his father, he knew the rules. Great article by the way.

May 13, 2012
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wow that trama explantion really racked my brains :!

March 07, 2012
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@ Brown Wolf:

What a crappy release do you speak of? Even a YouTube upload with low sound quality has him CLEARLY saying "OR am I". There is no doubt. And anyway "or" and "why" are completely diferrent sounding words.

October 15, 2011
Global Moderator Usa Female Is not currently on the site
Aiyana-Kopa -- I remember that, and to me it sounds like 'Or am I to be blamed...'

But it could be 'Why am I'

It really is hard to tell, without subtitles, that is. Kovu's voice is pretty soft in that bit.

October 15, 2011
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Remeber what Kovu says:
"Why am I to be judged for a CRIME I didn't commit?"
He says it after he saves Kiara.

October 15, 2011
Global Moderator Usa Female Is not currently on the site
River-White-Wolf -- Actually, no, Simba's Pride doesn't give a clear explanation as to why Zira and the outsiders were exiled. In fact, it doesn't say why at all.

October 15, 2011
Usa Is not currently on the site
im just going to say... in SP it says (i dont remember who said it) that Zira and the other Outlanders-to-be were exiled because they were still loyal to Scar... im not joining this discoussion. im just pointing something out and leaving. Okay?? Good-bye.

Nobody in particular
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September 04, 2011
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P.S: I'm glad you see what I mean.

Nobody in particular
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September 04, 2011
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And sorry Elchivato if I blew off my mouth. I guess this is a 'one says it's half full and the other says it's half empty' problem. Both our opinions could be right, and I'm sure there is many others who won't agree with either of us.

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September 04, 2011
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Yes Wolf, that's sure something that plagues different fanfiction ravaged sites. Too bad everyone can't look at the facts themselves. When you think about it, all the fanfiction in the world that's a continuation of the lion king2 seems like a waste of time with everyone's opinions. (in my opinion haha.) But no offence to anyone who supports fanfiction.
And what I've learned is all these takes of what the movie makers wanted everyone to 'feel' is all opinions too. A lot of them are interesting though, and there are a few I agree with.

September 04, 2011
Global Moderator Usa Female Is not currently on the site
And everyone has a different opinion and observation.

Nobody in particular
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September 04, 2011
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In your opinion that is.

August 31, 2011
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@ Nobody in particular:

Just because he was angry and ready for fight, doesn't mean he wasn't also traumatized. And this trauma lens is focused more on the exile, not his protectiveness over his daughter. Although I do believe it extents somewhat to that too.

And yes, I do understand what you mean. But all I'm doing here is analyze the character and story through my observasions, the film makers' words and psychology. Judging by the making-of documentary, I think I'm taking this just about as seriously as the movie makers meant it to be.

August 27, 2011
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Yeah, I never really thought Zira would be capable of killing anyone besides Simba.

Nobody in particular
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August 27, 2011
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Continuation:
But because of what happened to him, he was afraid Kiara would get lost, or hurt etc, but I wouldn't call that part of being traumatitized, it's just being overcaring. I also think you need to have a stretchy enough personality in a character to get a good story. (Although TLK2 is a little off ,it being thrown together!) This is all my observations from the movie, and no more. I don't mean to surpress anything, or offend anyone, but in short, those are my observations on the article with what I don't and do agree on.

All other things I've put out in comments on this article about the movie is what I've observed and what my opinion is. And I believe you've made yourself clear on your opinions, and I do see how you see it in that way. And I don't think cartoons with a good plot should be taken very seriously like a murderer on the news amongst families. I'm not being ignorant of anything, but in my OPINION cartoons shouldn't be taken too hard.

Last of all, I want a direct answer on this: Do you understand what I mean?

Nobody in particular
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August 27, 2011
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Elchivato:

You seem to come up with more things I couldn't even imagine if I lived to 1088! (Which is not physically possible, so I'd better forget that one! (LOL))
I understand what you are saying Elchivato, but this is how I got my views on the matter. I observed from watching the first movie, you'll see that Simba was told to face his past, and that the past can hurt, but you learn from it. Then, he goes back, and once he sees the devastated pridelands, and he is angry at Scar. Just watch his expression. Not tramatatized because of it. Then, he sees his mother get clobbered, and that really shows him Scar is not what he appeared he once was. Then he tells Scar, "Give me one good reason why I shouldn't rip you apart!" When he learns the truth, he is caught up in his thoughts and is heard shouting "NOOOOO!" Then, the truth spills out. Did you see how ANGRY Simba is? He was shocked to learn it at first, but he is angry at Scar, and afterward, once Scar is cornered on the top of priderock, he tell Scar he doesn't deserve to live. Ok, I don't want to wander off the point, but Simba was ready for a fight, and how most movies go, there's the suspense after Scar kicks coal into Simba's face, and then the showdown begins, which from how Simba is depicted, was ready for. Mainly after seeing the pridelands mind you!

Nobody in particular
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August 27, 2011
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That sort of thing. I wouldn't be very comfortable!!

August 27, 2011
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Oh, so your saying, it's very likely she said something like 'Scar rocks, and you stink Simba! I will kill you and your children!' or something like that?

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August 27, 2011
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Wolf:
It looks as though THE Illusion has caught you. (No offense to anyone's opinions.) THE Illusion is best explained like this: You and me watch the lion king 2, in this case. We both like it, and get an idea on the characters how they might act in certain situations at particular times. Unknown to us, 250,000,000 other fans also have had the same idea, but all our views are different. Thus begins arguments, debates or disputes on the movies and character in this case. (Get what I'm saying?) So, all in all, no one ever gets anywhere on any ideas as they may all contradict one anothers opinion. However, I think it's good for everyone to look into a character every now and then.

Kopa:
The article says "There is NO need for a new crime to explain anything in TLK2.
Seriously."

But what I question is just what it says. From watching the movies, Zira and her followers were banished because of supporting Scar, and Zira doesn't seem to go so soft on it either, from the murderous look in her eyes and how she sings about 'what the brute did.' (killing Scar) and tells Simba that "These lands belong to Scar!!" That was simply her crime, and since she is murderous, she was therefore banished is what I've observed as an exclaimation.

So, in other words, I see why you don't get it. Unless this wasn't taken as a crime, someone may not get it.

August 23, 2011
Global Moderator Usa Female Is not currently on the site
It would seem that Simba's Pride's creators didn't really dig deep enough. Fanfiction writers have better insight into the characters than they did.

August 23, 2011
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I read this very well and very hard, yet I have trouble understanding it. If the Outlanders never did anything, and this is all about Scar, what would be the need for excile?

August 23, 2011
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"And I don't know about tramas. It make Simba sound like a psycho wreck. So much for a good king!"

But that's what he's supposed to be. Somewhat a psychologigal wreck who can't rule by being absolutely present and who can't truly be a king and grown up. And who treates his daughter the way he does because she's just like he was and he doesn't want her to be him. Watch the Making-of documentary of Simba's Pride. It's all stated there. As in I based this article not only on the movie and human psychology but also on what the movie's creators have actually said.

"And by the way, I believe Simba (from the way he talks to Scar) was ready for a fight so that event wouldn't disturb him. What did he expect if he wasn't wanting to fight?"

Can you rephrase that? I don't quite get your meaning.

"Yes, he did give Scar a chance, but I don't think that would tramatatize him."

Not the giving a chance, the way Scar turned on him after that.

"And as for learning the truth, it was about time to lift one burden off Simba's mind and prepare for what needed to be done. That's not tramatatizing, or shouldn't be for him."

Don't forget that he didn't just get a burden lifted. He learned something deeply disturbing at the same time. As in, how should it not be traumatizing to learn that your friend, who also was your uncle, turned out to be your daddy's murderer? (Note, 'uncle' as in more than just a random friend, and 'daddy' as in you had been very close to the parent.) Especially when learning the truth happens at the moment when the said uncle is about to murder you too. And as all this would naturally lead into realizations how often he had been in potential danger hanging around him in his childhood. I think you're underestimating the seriousness of family ties and the sensitivity of a child's mind.

Nobody in particular
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August 22, 2011
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Obviously you can go more into character building than just a personality!
But let me get something clear: I'm only stating an OPINION of mine and from my observations. I'm not saying I'm right and youre not or vise versa, I'm only commenting on what I think and agree with or disagree with. Isn't that what article writers should expect? Critiquing? (Or however it's spelled!)
And I don't know about tramas. It make Simba sound like a psycho wreck. So much for a good king!
I understand how he'd be over caring, but I would not call him tramatatized. I know he'd be haunted or not want to think of cetain past events, but this is too overboard for my taste. I think tramatatized is a little over what Simba was going though in my ideas.

But I do like seeing what other people do think of these things so thanks for the info and links on the other article I commented on :)

And by the way, I believe Simba (from the way he talks to Scar) was ready for a fight so that event wouldn't disturb him. What did he expect if he wasn't wanting to fight? Yes, he did give Scar a chance, but I don't think that would tramatatize him. And as for learning the truth, it was about time to lift one burden off Simba's mind and prepare for what needed to be done. That's not tramatatizing, or shouldn't be for him.

I don't need any more info on this. I know wht your ideas and opinions are, but I thought I'd only state what I thought on the matter, in my common sense, if it needs be put that way.

August 20, 2011
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@ Nobody in particular:

Are you kidding? You wouldn't call Simba traumatized?

1. He was almost crushed to death by a stampede.
2. His _father_ died when he was 10 years old little boy.
3. He wittnessed that death with his own eyes.
4. He cried in the arms of his daddy's dead body.
5. He left to exile all alone at 10 years of age with the blame of his father's death in his heart.
6. He spent some days without food and water on a desert and almost died.
7. Years later he finds out his uncle who he considered a friend was actually his father's murderer.
8. He's revealed this at the moment this uncle is about to throw him (Simba) to his death.
9. Simba still gives him a chance to live (because he's not like Scar who kills family members) yet Scar cunningly attacks him again.

^That story goes beyond simple character-building. That goes into psychological traumas. There is no way in a thousand years those events would not traumatize a person, especially as they begun from an early childhood. There is no way Simba could've grown up to be carefree.

I don't just _believe_ in this and that. I use common sense. I repeat; stories are more than just random character-building.

Nobody in particular
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August 18, 2011
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Well, you could put it that way as you need a personality for the characters (obviously!) but I don't think I'd call Simba tramatatized. He's out of character with the rather different directed storyline which is half to blame for the fanfiction that's come out over the years. And I find it disappointing the way he is. They should've did him a little more carefree (like Nala.)
Believe what you like Elchivato, but it's still not how I believe it should've been, and is too over deep in my veiw.

July 13, 2011
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"But to start trying to include psychological stuff into a cartoon? Yikes!!:o"

What's the problem? The only difference to a live-action film is the way it's laied out in animated form instead of live actors and expensive movie sets. Live-action movie and animation movie may have and usually do have equally deep characters and stories. If you watch the Making of -documentary "Prouf of Simba's Pride" you'll learn the story IS about Simba and Kovu's psychology.

nobody in particular
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July 12, 2011
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:o EEK! I thought these movies were just a cartoon for kids mainly, but for all others to enjoy. The LK2 leads to a lot of fanfiction as it doesn't fit in good with the first movie, but I think everyone should keep in mind that it was rather thrown together and rushed, but took place after the recovery of the pridelands, which possibly seems like a year or so, as something that desolate could not recover so fast, (unless it was a few months or so from the rain?)
But to start trying to include psychological stuff into a cartoon? Yikes!!:o
And since TLK2 was thrown together rather quickly (which is too bad) a lot of things don't always fit, such as Zira and the outlanders, and even her cubs. But, they must've done something like perhaps didn't stop supporting Scar, or perhaps Zira rounded up an army to get 'Scar's' kingdom back, and got banished for it. That might explain a few things, as I've beeen practically studying these things for a while. What does anyone else say?:cool:

June 26, 2011
Global Moderator Usa Female Is not currently on the site
Aye, there's the rub. We don't know for a fact what was going on in Simba's mind. There is a whole lot more to that than what the movie and the directors tell.

June 25, 2011
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@ Brown Wolf:

"Loving Scar is not a crime, not one worthy of exile."

Not in our mind, but it is in Simba's mind. Hence all the trauma because of and hatred towards Scar. Naturally a stranger who passionately loves and sides with his father's murderer would be hated equally much. Plus, as I point out in the article, the exile wasn't just as a punishment for a crime they did not commit, but also to ensure the safety of his family and to ward off all reminders of Scar as in of the traumatic events from his past.

There was no crime needed, and no crime happened. Even the film's creators, in the Making of documentary, talk only about Simba's hatred of Scar and how it affects him as a ruler, and not of any crimes.

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