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 Post subject: Bit of a silly question/ observation
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2015 2:16 am 
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I have no interest in keeping this topic up anymore. If a mod could please lock it, that'd be great c:

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 Post subject: Re: Bit of a silly question/ observation
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2015 4:58 am 
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I never really got the impression that Mrs. Brisby and Justin have any romantic feelings towards each other. If anything at all, Mrs. Brisby may have found Justin to be a handsome fellow, but I wouldn't go as far to say they're in love with each other. There really isn't any evidence to support that anyway.

Taking a look back at that scene, I would have to say Mrs. Brisby was astonished by the lights, making it seem like she has a "flirty" expression on her face while she was admiring them. To support that, when she first enters that particular area, she says " it's the most beautiful sight I've ever seen." And considering that she has probably never been around electric lights before, so it would only make sense that she would be reacting in such a way. As for Justin saying "who, may I ask?" He's a guard after all, so he's only doing his job by asking Mr. Ages who's with him. There's also the fact that she's, you know, Mrs. Brisby, the widow of Jonathan Brisby. With the high respect they have for Jonathan, it's indeed, like Justin put it, an honor to be in her presence.

Attachment:
brisby-2.jpg
brisby-2.jpg [ 209.02 KiB | Viewed 1808 times ]

If you look towards the left hand side, you can see where Justin stands in between the toy guards. Above there, close to where they would be standing in that scene, is the lights that she was likely looking at.

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 Post subject: Re: Bit of a silly question/ observation
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2015 8:54 am 
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If you buy into the shipping thing which is so inexplicably popular in the teen and young adult animated fan communities out there, then sure. You can presume anything you wish. And I am not trying to be rude or curt here. I'm just going to try and provide some logic to counter what I view as an odd obsession, among young fans, for creating romantic undertones where none actually exist.


First, we have to realize that just because an animator draws something a certain way, it does not follow that the expression or body language of that character is meant to convey a crush or other romantic reaction. In the case of the screen shots above, you've taken still shots of one micro moment in the progression of the animation. One can do that with any shot, in any animated movie, and come up with any number of possible explanations. None of them would necessarily be accurate or even plausible.


Mrs. Brisby is portrayed as a shy, meek and demure lady. Older than Justin, it is certainly presumed. Because even the book, Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of NIMH, Nicodemus describes Justin as a very young rat (as he's telling Mrs. Frisby about their experiences at NIMH):


"I wished for my old home in the storm sewer; I wished I could see my mother and father, and run with my brother to the marketplace. I know all the others felt the same way; yet it seemed a hopeless thing. Still there was one rat who decided to try it anyway.

"He was a young rat, probably the youngest of all that had been caught, and by chance he was in the cage next to mine; I might mention that like Jenner and me, he was in the group Dr. Schultz called A. His name was Justin."



Somewhat earlier in the book, during Mrs. Frisby's first experiences in the rose bush, and she approaches Brutus a second time in the company of Mr. Ages, Justin is there with Brutus, and he's described this way:


When they approached the entrance again, Mrs. Frisby saw that Brutus stood at his post as before, but that another rat had joined him. Two of them, she thought. I hope Mr. Ages knows them both. The new rat saw them coming. He looked alert, dark gray in color, and extraordinarily handsome, though not so huge as Brutus.



The brief discussion that Mrs. Brisby and Justin have in the movie is still present in the book, though there is absolutely no mention, nor even an inference, that Mrs. Frisby is smitten with Justin. The only mention of Mrs. Frisby's thoughts about Justin are what is described above.


Angel Dreamer, you mention that, as a girl, you "would know". Well, not to take anything away from what you said (and I understand why you're saying it), but the scene you're deconstructing here only demonstrates what, as a girl, you should know also: that any woman (young or old) can be caught off guard and even be flushed with emotion by a handsome guy...even when she's in love with and committed to her boyfriend or husband. It's natural. Guys are the same way...a beautiful girl will drive them bananas. lol It doesn't necessarily translate to sudden romance.


And the scene in the movie doesn't necessarily have the inferences you're suggesting. It certainly doesn't for me. And it doesn't play that way at all in the book it was based upon. In both the book and the movie, Mrs. Frisby/Brisby is deeply in love with her late husband...feeling an abiding bond even after she learns of how he died (and that he died at all). In my opinion, it cheapens the character, and her feelings for her husband, by anyone suggesting these "crushes" or shippings. It deeply cheapens the character.


Besides, in the book (as well as its first sequel), Justin already has to deal with a girl with a crush: Isabella, a young girl rat who's far too young for him. And in the sequel, he not only has to continue dealing with her (and brushing her off), but he falls in love with a lady rat of his own age. There is never any attempt, by him, to woo Mrs. Frisby. He wouldn't...it would be totally out of character. Like the other rats, he has a great respect for her because of her relationship with Jonathan.


She's demure. Lady-like. And shy. Especially in the movie (even more so than in the book). It's bound to translate into such moments on screen. But, without trying to pick on you (which is not my intent), I think you are reading into the situation.

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 Post subject: Re: Bit of a silly question/ observation
PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2015 12:23 am 
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Mightybalto1925 wrote:
I never really got the impression that Mrs. Brisby and Justin have any romantic feelings towards each other. If anything at all, Mrs. Brisby may have found Justin to be a handsome fellow, but I wouldn't go as far to say they're in love with each other. There really isn't any evidence to support that anyway.


Thanks for your input Mighty! (J.C you're next :lol: )

um actually..I think finding him attractive was more along the lines of what I was asking tbh. ^^'
I'm not saying they're head over heels in love with each other, or even "in love" at all, but to me it just seemed like there was an interest that was above a simple and casual introduction (combined with the animation details, the characters animation, how they reacted, what words and lines were emphasized and how they were delivered just drove it for me cx y'know?)

I'll edit my post so it's more clear! :3


Mightybalto1925 wrote:
Taking a look back at that scene, I would have to say Mrs. Brisby was astonished by the lights, making it seem like she has a "flirty" expression on her face while she was admiring them. To support that, when she first enters that particular area, she says " it's the most beautiful sight I've ever seen." And considering that she has probably never been around electric lights before, so it would only make sense that she would be reacting in such a way.


Fair enough. In my opinion though, it seems like an astonished look would have..more open eyes. You get me? :lol: It's when her expression changed to a more half lidded, thick lash thing..that it just seemed..Idk..flirty.
I can understand being in awe of something though. That makes sense, like being mesmerized? Kinda like how Jenna was when Balto showed her the fake lights :p (wide eyes [again, wide eyes, not lidded xD], mouth agape etc?)
As JC said I may be reading too much into it, but the details in that scene just stand out to me to an annoying degree. :lol:



Mightybalto1925 wrote:
As for Justin saying "who, may I ask?" He's a guard after all, so he's only doing his job by asking Mr. Ages who's with him. There's also the fact that she's, you know, Mrs. Brisby, the widow of Jonathan Brisby. With the high respect they have for Jonathan, it's indeed, like Justin put it, an honor to be in her presence.

Oh but of course! Like I said, it's HOW he said the line that stood out to me. If I had a way to record the scene with audio, I'd totally post it with. Maybe I'll find the scene on youtube or something. D;
I do agree that the respect is key. Considering that, his tone comes across as admiration! c:

Mightybalto1925 wrote:
Attachment:
brisby-2.jpg

If you look towards the left hand side, you can see where Justin stands in between the toy guards. Above there, close to where they would be standing in that scene, is the lights that she was likely looking at.


True enough! What i'm questioning though is why she wasn't looking up at them then when she said "they're so beautiful.."
She's looking right at his eyes, and then when he goes "maam?" She pulls away with a shocked(?) expression and hurriedly looks UP (where the lights WOULD be) and clarifies (if you look at the scene, he then looks UP too)

Argh, I wish I had the clip..would make pointing it out easier. But oh well. :/



Again, this was just something I felt the need to share and ask about. I do appreciate your input! And I don't expect anyone to agree with me. This is just how I see it. c:

I'm kind of bad at explaining though >~>

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 Post subject: Re: Bit of a silly question/ observation
PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2015 7:57 am 
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"um actually..I think finding him attractive was more along the lines of what I was asking tbh. ^^'
I'm not saying they're head over heels in love with each other, or even "in love" at all, but to me it just seemed like there was an interest that was above a simple and casual introduction (combined with the animation details, the characters animation, how they reacted, what words and lines were emphasized and how they were delivered just drove it for me cx y'know?
"


Considering you said the following, that's the impression I got out of this whole post: "Am I the only one who thought/observed that there was some..possible romantic interest thingy going on between Justin and Mrs.B??" I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your post, I just didn't see any other way to view your point (especally when you're using terms such as eye-gazing and twitterpated).

Fair enough. In my opinion though, it seems like an astonished look would have..more open eyes. You get me? :lol: It's when her expression changed to a more half lidded, thick lash thing..that it just seemed..Idk..flirty.
I can understand being in awe of something though. That makes sense, like being mesmerized? Kinda like how Jenna was when Balto showed her the fake lights :p (wide eyes [again, wide eyes, not lidded xD], mouth agape etc?)
As JC said I may be reading too much into it, but the details in that scene just stand out to me to an annoying degree.


"Awe" could work here as well, but I wouldn't say "astonished" is incorrect either. When Mrs. Brisby enters the council area, she has an expression of being amazed on her face when the lights are activated.

Image

Mrs. Brisby has eyelashes throughout the entire film, not just in this scene with Justin, so I don't think the whole "thick eyelashes" thing is much relevant. Like JC said (and I had thought of that before, I just didn't incorporate it into my post), it's just the frame you paused it at that makes it seem that way. Examples of Mrs. Brisby's eyelashes in other scenes:

Image

Image

Image

Image

"Oh but of course! Like I said, it's HOW he said the line that stood out to me. If I had a way to record the scene with audio, I'd totally post it with. Maybe I'll find the scene on youtube or something. D;
I do agree that the respect is key. Considering that, his tone comes across as admiration! c:
"


The way he said the line doesn't sound strange to me. And since there is likely no intent for them to be interested in each other, there's no way they would have instructed Peter Strauss to make it sound like the character he's portraying is interested in Mrs. Brisby. He likely added his own flare, but I doubt that was his intent.

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Last edited by HBG on Sat May 23, 2015 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Bit of a silly question/ observation
PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2015 8:56 pm 
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Ship it... Ship it like FedEx!
Because as a fellow shipwright of Justby, I ships eeeeet hard! :mrgreen:
Also no you're not alone Angel dear for believing there's more going on between them.

I ought to know because I'm just as guilty for shipping Jenby as much as Justby. XDDDDD


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 Post subject: Re: Bit of a silly question/ observation
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2015 9:57 am 
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NezumiYuki wrote:
Ship it... Ship it like FedEx!
Because as a fellow shipwright of Justby, I ships eeeeet hard! :mrgreen:
Also no you're not alone Angel dear for believing there's more going on between them.

I ought to know because I'm just as guilty for shipping Jenby as much as Justby. XDDDDD

Dude, you're starting to get a bit silly.

And "Justby"? "Jenby"? Really? Image

*SIGH*

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 Post subject: Re: Bit of a silly question/ observation
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 1:35 pm 
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NezumiYuki wrote:
Ship it... Ship it like FedEx!
Because as a fellow shipwright of Justby, I ships eeeeet hard! :mrgreen:
Also no you're not alone Angel dear for believing there's more going on between them.

I ought to know because I'm just as guilty for shipping Jenby as much as Justby. XDDDDD


:drunken: Glad to see a fellow shipper. I was beginning to think I was the only one. ;)

JerseyCaptain wrote:
NezumiYuki wrote:
Ship it... Ship it like FedEx!
Because as a fellow shipwright of Justby, I ships eeeeet hard! :mrgreen:
Also no you're not alone Angel dear for believing there's more going on between them.

I ought to know because I'm just as guilty for shipping Jenby as much as Justby. XDDDDD

Dude, you're starting to get a bit silly.

And "Justby"? "Jenby"? Really? Image

*SIGH*



It's all in good fun. Don't take it too seriously, yea? I certainly don't. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Bit of a silly question/ observation
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 1:56 pm 
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JerseyCaptain wrote:
If you buy into the shipping thing which is so inexplicably popular in the teen and young adult animated fan communities out there, then sure. You can presume anything you wish. And I am not trying to be rude or curt here. I'm just going to try and provide some logic to counter what I view as an odd obsession, among young fans, for creating romantic undertones where none actually exist.


Thank you for your very thoughtful post, Jersey! c:
Ah, yea. I am a bit of a shipper for various fandoms, but it's not extremely important to me. I don't tend to take it that seriously c: No worries, you're not coming off rude.

JerseyCaptain wrote:
First, we have to realize that just because an animator draws something a certain way, it does not follow that the expression or body language of that character is meant to convey a crush or other romantic reaction. In the case of the screen shots above, you've taken still shots of one micro moment in the progression of the animation. One can do that with any shot, in any animated movie, and come up with any number of possible explanations. None of them would necessarily be accurate or even plausible.


That may be so, but there's also universal ways of animating certain and communicating behaviors/emotions/thoughts in an animated character. And what I noticed was resembling other animated movies where the protagonists or characters either had a...romantic interest/ brief moment of attraction/ crush/ flirtatious behavior, whatever you want to call it.

The screenshots are the best I can do, considering that I don't have a way to record the scene itself. I tried to pick stills in the moments that conveyed most to me, but it doesn't seem like it's doing any justice for my thoughts. :lol: This really isn't that important to me that I'd go to all the trouble to make it anyway. :P



JerseyCaptain wrote:
Mrs. Brisby is portrayed as a shy, meek and demure lady. Older than Justin, it is certainly presumed. Because even the book, Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of NIMH, Nicodemus describes Justin as a very young rat (as he's telling Mrs. Frisby about their experiences at NIMH):


"I wished for my old home in the storm sewer; I wished I could see my mother and father, and run with my brother to the marketplace. I know all the others felt the same way; yet it seemed a hopeless thing. Still there was one rat who decided to try it anyway.

"He was a young rat, probably the youngest of all that had been caught, and by chance he was in the cage next to mine; I might mention that like Jenner and me, he was in the group Dr. Schultz called A. His name was Justin."



Somewhat earlier in the book, during Mrs. Frisby's first experiences in the rose bush, and she approaches Brutus a second time in the company of Mr. Ages, Justin is there with Brutus, and he's described this way:


When they approached the entrance again, Mrs. Frisby saw that Brutus stood at his post as before, but that another rat had joined him. Two of them, she thought. I hope Mr. Ages knows them both. The new rat saw them coming. He looked alert, dark gray in color, and extraordinarily handsome, though not so huge as Brutus.



The brief discussion that Mrs. Brisby and Justin have in the movie is still present in the book, though there is absolutely no mention, nor even an inference, that Mrs. Frisby is smitten with Justin. The only mention of Mrs. Frisby's thoughts about Justin are what is described above.

Thank you for quoting from the book! As i've mentioned I've only read the first book and even then, it's been ages since.
I'm working off the movie continuity (if that's the right word?) for that very reason.




JerseyCaptain wrote:
Angel Dreamer, you mention that, as a girl, you "would know". Well, not to take anything away from what you said (and I understand why you're saying it), but the scene you're deconstructing here only demonstrates what, as a girl, you should know also: that any woman (young or old) can be caught off guard and even be flushed with emotion by a handsome guy...even when she's in love with and committed to her boyfriend or husband. It's natural. Guys are the same way...a beautiful girl will drive them bananas. lol It doesn't necessarily translate to sudden romance.


Okay I can see that I'm absolutely TERRIBLE at trying to explain anything. :lol:
That's really all I'm trying to ask. Did anyone think that they found each other attractive? I don't mean to say that they're gonna "OMG GET TOGETHER 5EVAR SHIP IT HELLA" but I'm asking if that...spark is there. xD




JerseyCaptain wrote:
And the scene in the movie doesn't necessarily have the inferences you're suggesting. It certainly doesn't for me. And it doesn't play that way at all in the book it was based upon. In both the book and the movie, Mrs. Frisby/Brisby is deeply in love with her late husband...feeling an abiding bond even after she learns of how he died (and that he died at all). In my opinion, it cheapens the character, and her feelings for her husband, by anyone suggesting these "crushes" or shippings. It deeply cheapens the character.


You know, I can honestly say I never thought about that angle. As much as I liked the idea of Justin and Mrs.B getting together, I can agree with this statement.


JerseyCaptain wrote:
Besides, in the book (as well as its first sequel), Justin already has to deal with a girl with a crush: Isabella, a young girl rat who's far too young for him. And in the sequel, he not only has to continue dealing with her (and brushing her off), but he falls in love with a lady rat of his own age. There is never any attempt, by him, to woo Mrs. Frisby. He wouldn't...it would be totally out of character. Like the other rats, he has a great respect for her because of her relationship with Jonathan.

As I've said, I've only read the first book so I don't remember much of it if anything. But I'll take your word for it.
That certainly is interesting insight though.
Justin gets all the ladies, eh? :lol:


JerseyCaptain wrote:
She's demure. Lady-like. And shy. Especially in the movie (even more so than in the book). It's bound to translate into such moments on screen. But, without trying to pick on you (which is not my intent), I think you are reading into the situation.



No worries, I appreciate your very thoughtful and informative post!
Perhaps, but I'm still convinced that it's not all it seems. To each their own :mrgreen:

Forgive shoddy responses- I'm on mobile

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Last edited by Angel Dreamer on Mon May 25, 2015 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Bit of a silly question/ observation
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 3:51 pm 
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Personally, I couldn't see Ms. B getting over Jonathan that quickly, but she does seem to note that he's handsome, especially in the book, and we should keep in mind that she's probably relieved at seeing a friendly face after Brutus scared her half to death. I mean, Justin could have feelings for her, but I always interpreted it as a respectful approach to Ms. Brisby (after all, he owes his life to Jonathan) and he's just a nice guy in general. After all, he must have heard Ms. Brisby calling his name out as she arrived after Nicodemus died, but it's not like he jumped up to hug her or ask how everything went with the cat. I think he had bigger priorities than wanting to start a relationship with her.
As for Brisby, she is clearly very affected by Jonathan's death, and it shows, despite her fierce will to care for her family. I mean, maybe, if pushed by her children, she could start up a relationship, but they are miles apart by the end of the film. It's cute, I could ship it, but I prefer thinking that Ms. Brisby and Justin is just a friendship based on respect, and she never lets her heart forget Jonathan.
Just my $0.02

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 Post subject: Re: Bit of a silly question/ observation
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 10:08 am 
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Extraordinarily-well said, Breeze! I couldn't possibly agree more.

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 Post subject: Re: Bit of a silly question/ observation
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 3:02 pm 
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I have no interest in keeping this topic up anymore. If a mod could please lock it, that'd be great c:

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 Post subject: Re: Bit of a silly question/ observation
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:52 am 
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